<div dir="ltr">Thank you. After spending a evening researching the National Electrical Code, your advice lines up perfectly with it. Much appreciated.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 8:57 AM Craig Davidson <<a href="mailto:cwdavidson1@yahoo.com">cwdavidson1@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr">I would like to take a shot at answering the grounding questions that started this thread since the answers may be applicable to others with similar types of installations. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The primary assumption is that these questions are being asked for the purpose of mitigating safety risks associated with potential lightning strikes, and not being asked in terms of antenna performance with a ground mounted vertical and the use (or not) of radials.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div><div style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><p><i><b>1) Is it OK to attach the ground strap from one of the u-bolts to the residential grounding post already buried in the ground?</b></i></p></div><div style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div dir="ltr">It looks like the instruction manual shows the end of the U-bolt as the attachment for the ground wire. Given that, attaching from that point to the residential Ground Electrode System is fine.</div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr">Use 6 or 8 AWG solid copper wire (not ground braid or strap) and appropriate bonding methods to the ground electrode.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div></div><div style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div><b><i>2) Is a grounding strap strictly necessary if the mast to which the antenna is attached with the u-bolts is itself a metal post buried almost 8 feet into the ground?</i></b></div><div><b><i><br></i></b></div><div dir="ltr">You can probably get away with using the antenna mast (I'm assuming it's galvanized steel) as a ground electrode. The U-bolts for the antenna <b>would not be</b> sufficient for bonding the antenna ground to the mast. There are such things as u-bolt grounding lugs that you might be able to purchase to serve as a bonding attachment point for the mast.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">That being said, ground electrodes must be electrical bonded together as part of the ground electrode system, so the antenna mast would have to be bonded to the rest of the ground electrode system (residential ground electrode). This is required to prevent potentially lethal voltage differences from developing during lightning strikes or other types of faults.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Based on this - it doesn't seem like using the mast saves you much work. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Please keep in mind that if you want to ensure you meet code then it would be best to consult a licensed electrician (I am not).<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">If anybody has a disagreement with the answers above, please chime in.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> </div><div dir="ltr">73,</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Craig K1CWD</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div><b><i><br></i></b></div><div><b><i><br></i></b></div></div></div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div><br></div>
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On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 09:30:10 AM GMT+7, Marla A. Wallace <<a href="mailto:wa1gsf@comcast.net" target="_blank">wa1gsf@comcast.net</a>> wrote:
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<div><div id="m_-8110476465089911655ydpdd3b56c5yiv7344334776"><div><font face="Calibri"></font><p dir="ltr">Not to pour gasoline on this blaze, but I have been reading the mail on this QSO with interest since I am about to put up an antenna for HF and operate on the lower frequencies for the first time.</p>
<p dir="ltr">So I appreciate the information. I may take a few shortcuts in my installation, but at least I now understand what rules I am breaking by doing so.</p>
<p dir="ltr">As I understand it, there are two reasons for grounding: managing RF and protection against lightning strike. The lightning protection requires a quality ground capable of handling high current. The RF management requires less current but needs to be physically close (<=1/4 wave). Is this correct?</p>
<p dir="ltr">Me ke aloha<br clear="none">
-- Marla</p>
<br clear="none"><br clear="none">On April 30, 2023, at 21:42, Geoffrey Feldman <<a href="mailto:geoffreyf@comcast.net" target="_blank">geoffreyf@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div id="m_-8110476465089911655ydpdd3b56c5yiv7344334776yqt07022"><div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">No it doesn’t. Yes there is an issue. Yes there are people working on changing it – but you didn’t read that either. Do you have a solution to propose which builds on the work of others? Didn’t mention it or think of it did you?</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The answers you got on a PUBLIC thread took time to answer. The subject is more complex than you appear to have expected. The effort to write it was not for you alone. It’s for anyone else who may be thinking about a very typical, not very exotic problem which many have, not just you. It’s also a way for us to hone our explanations to be more effective.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">If you learn the subject on your own, you may realize that actually you got a pretty good succinct answer from several different perspectives. You got something of value that took time to provide and which you did not appreciate. That’s a risk one takes in writing an answer but then you went off on the membership tangent (AGAIN).</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Don’t be surprised if you don’t get answers again.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">NEARFest was actually pretty well attended. Most of it happens on Friday. A lot of stuff was sold by Saturday evening. Did you go to any of the seminars? There were some good ones. </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">“Have a nice day?” How have you added to it? Condescension? Don’t tell others how to suck eggs – that’s lesson one on not condescending. People spent time giving you the help we honestly thought you needed and this was your response. What’s the next complaint? Nobody helps? </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">W1GCF Geoff</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt"> KC1SOZ [mailto:<a shape="rect" href="mailto:kc1soz@bd5.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kc1soz@bd5.com</a>] <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 30, 2023 7:45 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Geoffrey Feldman<br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> matthew sapienza; Dan Trainor; w1hh<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bars] Ground post</span></p><p> </p><div><p>And your answer demonstrates <b><u>exactly</u></b> why membership in clubs like these continues to decline, on average of 5-10% a year, straight into oblivion, as evidenced by the average age of those in attendance at this week's show in Deerfield. If you can't answer a question about a ground rod in a simple manner, without being condescending, then it is not me who does not understand it.</p><div><p> </p></div><div><p>Have a nice day.</p></div><div><p> </p></div></div><p> </p><div><div><p>On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 5:42 PM Geoffrey Feldman <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:geoffreyf@comcast.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">geoffreyf@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Your question shows you do not know what a ground is. You don’t want to know. How can you install something that you don’t understand.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">So don’t ask. </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">You may get lucky, or you may wish you had read a whole book or at least emails that people wrote because THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS whether you like the complexity or not. </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">“I got this” – no you don’t. Sadder, you don’t want to. </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Geoff W1GCF</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt"> KC1SOZ [mailto:<a shape="rect" href="mailto:kc1soz@bd5.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kc1soz@bd5.com</a>] <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 30, 2023 5:22 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> matthew sapienza<br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> Dan Trainor; Geoffrey Feldman; w1hh<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bars] Ground post</span></p><p> </p><div><p>Folks, I just want to install a ground, not engage in a federal project requiring me to read a whole book on the subject. The manufacturer does not require counterpoises or anything like that. Just a mast, the antenna, mounting hardware for the u-bolts, the grounding post and strap, and of course the feedline. Even the radials are optional when ground mounting.</p><div><p> </p></div><div><p><a shape="rect" href="http://www.radiomanual.info/schemi/ACC_antenna/Hy-gain_AV-14AVQ_user.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.radiomanual.info/schemi/ACC_antenna/Hy-gain_AV-14AVQ_user.pdf</a> </p></div><div><p> </p></div><div><p>Thanks for the input. I got this.</p></div></div><p> </p><div><div><p>On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 4:38 PM matthew sapienza via bars <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:bars@w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bars@w1hh.org</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt">I have the same book I definitely helped me with grounding my shack and radio/ amplifier/ tuner and hf mobile radios and antennas <br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone</a></p><p style="margin-top:0in"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;color:rgb(113,95,250)">On Sunday, April 30, 2023, 16:34, Dan Trainor <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:dptrainor@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">dptrainor@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div id="m_-8110476465089911655ydpdd3b56c5yiv7344334776m_1058478651659516273m_1591026911800856751m_375966899518341264m_3264289665232916130yiv4766370897"><div><div><div><div><table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="450" style="width:225pt;background:rgb(229,230,233);border-collapse:collapse"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="padding:0in"><p align="center" style="text-align:center"><span><img id="m_-8110476465089911655ydpdd3b56c5yiv7344334776m_1058478651659516273m_1591026911800856751_x005f_x0000_i1025" border="0" alt="41+zyyI-5IL._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA76,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg" style="width: 300px; max-width: 0px;"></span></p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="padding:0in"><table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="300" style="width:150pt;background:rgb(229,230,233)"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="padding:6pt 0in"><div style="margin-left:12pt;margin-right:12pt;max-width:100%"><p><span style="font-size:9pt"><a shape="rect" href="https://www.amazon.com/Grounding-Bonding-Radio-Amateur-ARRL-dp-1625951493/dp/1625951493/ref=dp_ob_title_bk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none">Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur 2nd Edition – Good Practices for Electrical Safety, Lightning Protection, and RF Management</span></a></span></p><p><span style="font-size:8.5pt"><a shape="rect" href="https://www.amazon.com/Grounding-Bonding-Radio-Amateur-ARRL-dp-1625951493/dp/1625951493/ref=dp_ob_title_bk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none">amazon.com</span></a></span></p></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div><div><p> </p></div><div><p> </p></div><div><p>"<b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:rgb(15,17,17)">Proper Station Grounding is Important!</span></b></p></div><p style="margin-right:10.5pt;margin-left:10.5pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:rgb(15,17,17)">The second edition of <i>Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur</i> introduces you to the current standards for lightning protection and communication systems. You’ll learn effective grounding and bonding techniques for home stations (including condos and apartments), portable and mobile stations, towers, and outdoor antennas. </span></p><p style="margin-right:10.5pt;margin-left:10.5pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:rgb(15,17,17)">Build your ham radio station using these effective grounding and bonding techniques:</span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:rgb(15,17,17)">AC safety</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:rgb(15,17,17)">: Protect against shock hazards from ac-powered equipment by providing a safe path for current when a fault in wiring or insulation occurs.</span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:rgb(15,17,17)"><br clear="none"><b>Lightning protection</b>: Keep all equipment at the same voltage during transients from lightning, and dissipate the lightning’s charge in the Earth, away from equipment.</span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:rgb(15,17,17)"><br clear="none"><b>RF management</b>: Prevent unwanted RF currents and voltages (also known as RF interference or RFI) from disrupting the normal functions of equipment.”</span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:rgb(15,17,17)"> </span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:rgb(15,17,17)">73 de WA1QZX</span></p><div><p> </p></div><p> </p><div id="m_-8110476465089911655ydpdd3b56c5yiv7344334776m_1058478651659516273m_1591026911800856751m_375966899518341264m_3264289665232916130yiv4766370897yqt17645"><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt"> </p><div><p>On Apr 30, 2023, at 4:28 PM, Geoffrey Feldman <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:geoffreyf@comcast.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">geoffreyf@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><p> </p></div></div></div><div id="m_-8110476465089911655ydpdd3b56c5yiv7344334776m_1058478651659516273m_1591026911800856751m_375966899518341264m_3264289665232916130yiv4766370897yqt87948"><div><div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">There is no black and white answer. Check antenna performance. Read up on Lightning protection. What I wrote to you is considerably condensed from the ARRL book on this subject.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">It’s better to do the extra work and get it right. It’s very good to recognize that not all grounds are the same thing – but you want to think that way? You might get away with it or – you might ruin your rig or burn down your house in a Lightning strike. The choice is still yours.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">DO NOT use the ground for the house electrical system or the cable TV system ALWAYS use your own ground. It’s not OK to use an existing ground for another system – never OK for that.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">You still didn’t tell us the wavelength of your antenna. That matters a lot.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Geoff W1GCF</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt"> KC1SOZ [mailto:<a shape="rect" href="mailto:kc1soz@bd5.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kc1soz@bd5.com</a>] <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 30, 2023 4:15 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Geoffrey Feldman<br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> w1hh<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bars] Ground post</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><div><p><span>So, 1) is a bad idea, 2) is ok? As I said, the mast would be a metal post buried 8 ft into the ground.</span></p></div><div><div><p><span> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p><span>The antenna in question is one of the Hy-Gain AV-14AVQ's that I bought from Niece (and maybe a second one in a phased array later on.) </span></p></div></div></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><div><div><p><span>On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 4:04 PM Geoffrey Feldman <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:geoffreyf@comcast.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">geoffreyf@comcast.net</span></a>> wrote:</span></p></div></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><div><div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">“Ground” has different meanings. The short answer to your question is: No.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Explanation: In this particular case, what you propose is ill advised. The electrical system ground post is for the electrical system. RF or Lightning that is not absorbed by that post would then go into the residence. Similarly surges from the power distribution system could go to your equipment. Yes, people do this and get away with it but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or that it’s the same idea at different locales.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">If you are sure it’s buried 8’ STRAIGHT DOWN into the ground then it’s probably OK for lightning strike management. (However there should be precautions for where the feedline goes into your home but that’s another story.) Where Lightning is concerned there is no perfect solutions just to pray that yours is good enough.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">If you are asking about an effective counterpoise then it may not be satisfactory. The answer depends on soil conditions where you are but generally wires laid along the ground or just beneath the turf will provide better antenna performance (you didn’t mention the wavelength, so for shorter wave lengths there may be easier but adequate solutions) Measure performance and if in doubt – add more horizontal wires along the ground. </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In both cases, what you suggest may not prevent common mode currents returning through the outer conductor of the Coax. This is bad but can be corrected with a choke near the entry point to the house. If the E-field of your antenna doesn’t find a suitable place to complete its circuit (counterpoise or opposite side in a dipole) then it will find other paths. Antenna performance will suffer, impedance will be off etc. </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Back to the word “Ground” – the word is used in other ways such as “equipment ground, a no load safety return for electrical failure (the third prong of a plug). It can mean a comment point that stated voltages in a circuit are measured from. In other radio systems, it can mean a suitable return path for the e-field such as the metal body of a car, a radar dish etc. If you were to sink 8’ ground rods 10 feet apart or so you would likely see voltage between them, pointing out that ground is never absolute, it’s always local.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">By the way, do not use a ground established for the buildings Cable TV service. That can make you super unpopular.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Putting in a new ground can be a lot of fun. When in doubt – do that. Get the standard ground stake sold at Lowes or Home Depot. Get up on a step ladder to start it in. A solid carpenters hammer is enough. It may seem stuck, keep banging and hopefully you will break what it’s stuck on. (Dig safe is a good thing too)</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">That should do it</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Geoff W1GCF</span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><div><p><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt"> bars [mailto:<a shape="rect" href="mailto:bars-bounces@w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">bars-bounces@w1hh.org</span></a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>KC1SOZ<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 30, 2023 3:38 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> w1hh<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> [bars] Ground post</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><div><p><span>When putting up a ground-mounted vertical antenna...</span></p></div><div><div><p><span> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p><span>1) Is it OK to attach the ground strap from one of the u-bolts to the residential grounding post already buried in the ground?</span></p></div></div><div><div><p><span> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p><span>2) Is a grounding strap strictly necessary if the mast to which the antenna is attached with the u-bolts is itself a metal post buried almost 8 feet into the ground?</span></p></div></div><div><div><p><span> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p><span>73,</span></p></div></div><div><div><p><span>KC1SOZ</span></p></div></div><div><div><p><span>Juan</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><p><span style="font-size:9pt">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">bars mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:bars@w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bars@w1hh.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://mail.w1hh.org/mailman/listinfo/bars_w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mail.w1hh.org/mailman/listinfo/bars_w1hh.org</a></span></p></div></div></div><div id="m_-8110476465089911655ydpdd3b56c5yiv7344334776m_1058478651659516273m_1591026911800856751m_375966899518341264m_3264289665232916130yqt02651"><p>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">bars mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:bars@w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bars@w1hh.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://mail.w1hh.org/mailman/listinfo/bars_w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mail.w1hh.org/mailman/listinfo/bars_w1hh.org</a></p></div></blockquote></div><p>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">bars mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:bars@w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bars@w1hh.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://mail.w1hh.org/mailman/listinfo/bars_w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mail.w1hh.org/mailman/listinfo/bars_w1hh.org</a></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><div id="m_-8110476465089911655ydpdd3b56c5yqt82620">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">bars mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:bars@w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bars@w1hh.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://mail.w1hh.org/mailman/listinfo/bars_w1hh.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mail.w1hh.org/mailman/listinfo/bars_w1hh.org</a><br clear="none"></div></div>
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