<div dir="ltr">Geoff - <div><br></div><div>"<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px">There are other bands we share with other services, so in this regard it is the same.</span>"</div><div>I think this is a false analogy. Where amateurs share bands today with other services, we act as hams and not as users/licensees of the services sharing the allocation.</div><div>Hams talking to hams on FRS/GMRS frequencies doesn't make sense when we have substantial allocations of our own equivalent bands.</div><div>Hams talking to FRS/GMRS users would basically make us users of that service. See below.</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px">if we are operating within the channel definitions of frequency, bandwidth, offset, and power - albeit with non-GMRS equipment, why not?</span>"<br></div><div>Factual answer - because that's how they wrote the rules - FRS and GMRS require type-accepted equipment, and ham equipment isn't type-accepted for FRS/GMRS (which requires that it not be able to transmit outside those allcoations).<br></div><div><div>More general answer: we can all have opinions on how it might/ought to be - at the end of the day, the FCC sets the rules, and there is value in administrative clarity / division between different uses. </div><br class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>The rules for FRS are that anyone can use it, as long as the equipment meets requirements and is certified. I think this applies to CB as well, right?</div><div>The rules for GMRS are that anyone can ask the FCC for a license, and use certified equipment in line with operational requirements which are mostly enforced by the gear.</div><div>The rules for the Amateur Service require passing a knowledge test, and grant correspondingly greater privileges both in terms of our rights to use non-certified equipment, and the significant primary and secondary allocations of spectrum we are privileged to use. Hams have also demonstrated a certain degree of self-regulation in both the licensing process and operating practice that supports the FCC.</div><div><br></div><div>If they allowed hams to use GMRS (or FRS) without the restrictions placed on other users, then they'd have to write the legal language to allow and characterize that use into the regulation. That would make it harder to understand and perhaps leave room for abuse/conflicting uses.</div><div><br></div><div>I see it as a "good fences make good neighbors" situation. The rules are clear in each domain and apply to everyone equally. The practical barrier to entry for FRS/GMRS is very low, especially when you can buy certified radios for less than the cost of a decent lunch. The GMRS ticket costs less than a latte per year, and none is required for FRS.</div><div><br></div><div>That said, I don't expect the black helicopters to show up with FCC enforcement officers, if you PTT on FRS/GMRS using your widebanded HT :).</div><div><br></div><div>Adam / AA1N</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 12:11 PM <a href="mailto:geoffreyf@comcast.net">geoffreyf@comcast.net</a> <<a href="mailto:geoffreyf@comcast.net">geoffreyf@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-7582368347123499216">
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Actually, we can operate on CB or GMRS using equipment sold for that purpose. We are not restricted because we are hams. We only have to use GMRS equipment.</div>
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Also, GMRS is a channelized service, so if we did / could operate in the GMRS band, we would have to set our equipment to the channel restrictions (different for different channels). There are other bands we share with other services, so in this regard it
is the same. As licensees we must yield to, and not interfere with the other users of the frequencies.</div>
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So, I repeat, if we are operating within the channel definitions of frequency, bandwidth, offset, and power - albeit with non-GMRS equipment, why not? We have taken tests that demonstrate we know what we are supposed to do and not do, so that also would
apply. It's not a public safety, marine, aviation, commercial channel, so that's not an issue. </div>
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At the end of the day, the only effect of the restriction is that we have to buy GMRS equipment to operate legally.</div>
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I think the answer is that GMRS equipment manufacturers want to sell their stuff and defray the costs of type approval for the band.</div>
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Any other reason?</div>
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Geoff / W1GCF</div>
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<div id="m_-7582368347123499216divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Adam Smith <<a href="mailto:asmith@netspace.org" target="_blank">asmith@netspace.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 11, 2024 10:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:geoffreyf@comcast.net" target="_blank">geoffreyf@comcast.net</a> <<a href="mailto:geoffreyf@comcast.net" target="_blank">geoffreyf@comcast.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Verhulst <<a href="mailto:verhulst@comcast.net" target="_blank">verhulst@comcast.net</a>>; BARS CLUB BROADCAST <<a href="mailto:bars@w1hh.org" target="_blank">bars@w1hh.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bars] ***SPAM*** Re: GMRS</font>
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<div dir="ltr">"<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">A more interesting question would be why can't licensed hams operate on those frequencies without an additional
license or charge?</span>"
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<div>IMHO, for the same reason that we can't operate on CB frequencies - the allocation is reserved for a different user base, with different purposes, and subject to different entry criteria and corresponding rules. If you have that need, get that license
(by buying an FRS certified unit, or sending the FCC the very nominal GMRS fee).</div>
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<div>Adam</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 10:30 AM geoffreyf--- via bars <<a href="mailto:bars@w1hh.org" target="_blank">bars@w1hh.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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The point is regulation. There are all sorts of things regulated by license for which there is no or minimal testing. Revenue may be part of it, but one must provide the license call sign on request if operating over ½ watt. CB once required a similar
license. The revenue, at least theoretically, supports monitoring and enforcement.</div>
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GMRS bands don't seem very active. A more interesting question would be why can't licensed hams operate on those frequencies without an additional license or charge? </div>
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Geoff</div>
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<div id="m_-7582368347123499216x_m_-6896356044934441665divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>From:</b> bars <<a href="mailto:bars-bounces@w1hh.org" target="_blank">bars-bounces@w1hh.org</a>> on behalf of Verhulst
via bars <<a href="mailto:bars@w1hh.org" target="_blank">bars@w1hh.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 11, 2024 10:09 AM<br>
<b>Cc:</b> BARS CLUB BROADCAST <<a href="mailto:bars@w1hh.org" target="_blank">bars@w1hh.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [bars] ***SPAM*** Re: GMRS</span>
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<div>If there is no test, what's point of requiring a license? Other than increasing FCC revenue, of course.<br>
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73Tony W1DYS<br>
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<div>On 10/11/2024 9:52 AM, Stephen Crook via bars wrote:</div>
<blockquote>Here are the current rules for GMRS
<div><a href="https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E?toc=1" id="m_-7582368347123499216x_m_-6896356044934441665OWA9fc3572c-7a21-237b-0605-816e5a9ca01f" target="_blank">https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E?toc=1</a></div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">Including channels (FRS = interstitial) and power limits:</div>
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<span style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPS-BoldMT;font-size:18px"><b>§ 95.1763 GMRS channels.</b></span></p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
The GMRS is allotted 30 channels—16 main channels and 14 interstitial channels. GMRS stations may transmit on any of the channels as indicated below.</p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px 12px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
(a) <span style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPS-BoldItalicMT"><b><i>462 MHz main channels.</i></b></span> Only mobile, hand-held portable, repeater, base and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 462.5500, 462.5750,
462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500, 462.6750, 462.7000, and 462.7250 MHz.</p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px 12px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
(b) <span style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPS-BoldItalicMT"><b><i>462 MHz interstitial channels.</i></b></span> Only mobile, hand-held portable and base stations may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 462.5625, 462.5875, 462.6125,
462.6375, 462.6625, 462.6875, and 462.7125 MHz.</p>
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(c) <span style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPS-BoldItalicMT"><b><i>467 MHz main channels.</i></b></span> Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations may transmit
on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,238)"><a href="https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.319#p-95.319(c)" id="m_-7582368347123499216x_m_-6896356044934441665OWA0168a222-dd14-64d1-0c88-06352ac89519" style="color:rgb(0,0,238);margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" target="_blank">§
95.319(c)</a></span>. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.</p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px 12px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
(d) <span style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPS-BoldItalicMT"><b><i>467 MHz interstitial channels.</i></b></span> Only hand-held portable units may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5625, 467.5875, 467.6125, 467.6375, 467.6625,
467.6875, and 467.7125 MHz.</p>
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<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 14.9px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:18px">
<span style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPS-BoldMT"><b>§ 95.1767 GMRS transmitting power limits.</b></span></p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
This section contains transmitting power limits for GMRS stations. The maximum transmitting power depends on which channels are being used and the type of station.</p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px 12px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
(a) <span style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPS-BoldItalicMT"><b><i>462/467 MHz main channels.</i></b></span> The limits in this paragraph apply to stations transmitting on any of the 462 MHz main channels or any of the 467 MHz main channels. Each GMRS transmitter
type must be capable of operating within the allowable power range. GMRS licensees are responsible for ensuring that their GMRS stations operate in compliance with these limits.</p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px 24px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
(1) The transmitter output power of mobile, repeater and base stations must not exceed 50 Watts.</p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px 24px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
(2) The transmitter output power of fixed stations must not exceed 15 Watts.</p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px 12px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
(b) <span style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPS-BoldItalicMT"><b><i>462 MHz interstitial channels.</i></b></span> The effective radiated power (ERP) of mobile, hand-held portable and base stations transmitting on the 462 MHz interstitial channels must not exceed
5 Watts.</p>
<p style="direction:ltr;line-height:normal;margin:0px 0px 12px 12px;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:20px">
(c) <span style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPS-BoldItalicMT"><b><i>467 MHz interstitial channels.</i></b></span> The effective radiated power (ERP) of hand-held portable units transmitting on the 467 MHz interstitial channels must not exceed 0.5 Watt. Each GMRS
transmitter type capable of transmitting on these channels must be designed such that the ERP does not exceed 0.5 Watts.</p>
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<span>-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr">"Be well, do good work, and keep in touch." -Garrison Keillor</div>
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</div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">"Be well, do good work, and keep in touch." -Garrison Keillor</div>