[bars] Ground post

[KC1SOZ]

Thank you. After spending a evening researching the National Electrical
Code, your advice lines up perfectly with it. Much appreciated.

On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 8:57 AM Craig Davidson <cwdavidson1 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I would like to take a shot at answering the grounding questions that
> started this thread since the answers may be applicable to others with
> similar types of installations.
>
> The primary assumption is that these questions are being asked for the
> purpose of mitigating safety risks associated with potential lightning
> strikes, and not being asked in terms of antenna performance with a ground
> mounted vertical and the use (or not) of radials.
>
> *1) Is it OK to attach the ground strap from one of the u-bolts to the
> residential grounding post already buried in the ground?*
> It looks like the instruction manual shows the end of the U-bolt as the
> attachment for the ground wire. Given that, attaching from that point to
> the residential Ground Electrode System is fine.
>
> Use 6 or 8 AWG solid copper wire (not ground braid or strap) and
> appropriate bonding methods to the ground electrode.
>
> *2) Is a grounding strap strictly necessary if the mast to which the
> antenna is attached with the u-bolts is itself a metal post buried almost 8
> feet into the ground?*
>
> You can probably get away with using the antenna mast (I'm assuming it's
> galvanized steel) as a ground electrode. The U-bolts for the antenna *would
> not be* sufficient for bonding the antenna ground to the mast. There are
> such things as u-bolt grounding lugs that you might be able to purchase to
> serve as a bonding attachment point for the mast.
>
> That being said, ground electrodes must be electrical bonded together as
> part of the ground electrode system, so the antenna mast would have to be
> bonded to the rest of the ground electrode system (residential ground
> electrode). This is required to prevent potentially lethal voltage
> differences from developing during lightning strikes or other types of
> faults.
>
> Based on this - it doesn't seem like using the mast saves you much work.
>
> Please keep in mind that if you want to ensure you meet code then it would
> be best to consult a licensed electrician (I am not).
>
> If anybody has a disagreement with the answers above, please chime in.
>
>
> 73,
>
> Craig K1CWD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 09:30:10 AM GMT+7, Marla A. Wallace <
> wa1gsf at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Not to pour gasoline on this blaze, but I have been reading the mail on
> this QSO with interest since I am about to put up an antenna for HF and
> operate on the lower frequencies for the first time.
>
> So I appreciate the information.  I may take a few shortcuts in my
> installation, but at least I now understand what rules I am breaking by
> doing so.
>
> As I understand it, there are two reasons for grounding: managing RF and
> protection against lightning strike.  The lightning protection requires a
> quality ground capable of handling high current.  The RF management
> requires less current but needs to be physically close (<=1/4 wave).  Is
> this correct?
>
> Me ke aloha
> -- Marla
>
>
> On April 30, 2023, at 21:42, Geoffrey Feldman <geoffreyf at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> No it doesn’t.  Yes there is an issue. Yes there are people working on
> changing it – but you didn’t read that either.  Do you have a solution to
> propose which builds on the work of others?  Didn’t mention it or think of
> it did you?
>
>
>
> The answers you got on a PUBLIC thread took time to answer. The subject is
> more complex than you appear to have expected.  The effort to write it was
> not for you alone. It’s for anyone else who may be thinking about a very
> typical, not very exotic problem which many have, not just you.  It’s also
> a way for us to hone our explanations to be more effective.
>
>
>
> If you learn the subject on your own, you may realize that actually you
> got a pretty good succinct answer from several different perspectives.  You
> got something of value that took time to provide and which you did not
> appreciate.  That’s a risk one takes in writing an answer but then you went
> off on the membership tangent (AGAIN).
>
>
>
> Don’t be surprised if you don’t get answers again.
>
>
>
> NEARFest was actually pretty well attended.  Most of it happens on
> Friday.  A lot of stuff was sold by Saturday evening.  Did you go to any of
> the seminars? There were some good ones.
>
>
>
> “Have a nice day?”  How have you added to it? Condescension? Don’t tell
> others how to suck eggs – that’s lesson one on not condescending.  People
> spent time giving you the help we honestly thought you needed and this was
> your response.  What’s the next complaint? Nobody helps?
>
>
>
> W1GCF Geoff
>
>
>
> *From:* KC1SOZ [mailto:kc1soz at bd5.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 30, 2023 7:45 PM
> *To:* Geoffrey Feldman
> *Cc:* matthew sapienza; Dan Trainor; w1hh
> *Subject:* Re: [bars] Ground post
>
>
>
> And your answer demonstrates *exactly* why membership in clubs like these
> continues to decline, on average of 5-10% a year, straight into oblivion,
> as evidenced by the average age of those in attendance at this week's show
> in Deerfield. If you can't answer a question about a ground rod in a simple
> manner, without being condescending, then it is not me who does not
> understand it.
>
>
>
> Have a nice day.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 5:42 PM Geoffrey Feldman <geoffreyf at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> Your question shows you do not know what a ground is.  You don’t want to
> know.  How can you install something that you don’t understand.
>
>
>
> So don’t ask.
>
>
>
> You may get lucky, or you may wish you had read a whole book or at least
> emails that people wrote because THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS whether you like
> the complexity or not.
>
>
>
> “I got this” – no you don’t. Sadder, you don’t want to.
>
>
>
> Geoff  W1GCF
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* KC1SOZ [mailto:kc1soz at bd5.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 30, 2023 5:22 PM
> *To:* matthew sapienza
> *Cc:* Dan Trainor; Geoffrey Feldman; w1hh
> *Subject:* Re: [bars] Ground post
>
>
>
> Folks, I just want to install a ground, not engage in a federal project
> requiring me to read a whole book on the subject. The manufacturer does not
> require counterpoises or anything like that. Just a mast, the antenna,
> mounting hardware for the u-bolts, the grounding post and strap, and of
> course the feedline. Even the radials are optional when ground mounting.
>
>
>
> http://www.radiomanual.info/schemi/ACC_antenna/Hy-gain_AV-14AVQ_user.pdf
>
>
>
> Thanks for the input. I got this.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 4:38 PM matthew sapienza via bars <bars at w1hh.org>
> wrote:
>
> I have the same book I definitely helped me with grounding my shack and
> radio/ amplifier/ tuner and hf mobile radios and antennas
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS>
>
> On Sunday, April 30, 2023, 16:34, Dan Trainor <dptrainor at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [image:
> 41+zyyI-5IL._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA76,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg]
>
> Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur 2nd Edition – Good Practices
> for Electrical Safety, Lightning Protection, and RF Management
> <https://www.amazon.com/Grounding-Bonding-Radio-Amateur-ARRL-dp-1625951493/dp/1625951493/ref=dp_ob_title_bk>
>
> amazon.com
> <https://www.amazon.com/Grounding-Bonding-Radio-Amateur-ARRL-dp-1625951493/dp/1625951493/ref=dp_ob_title_bk>
>
>
>
>
>
> "*Proper Station Grounding is Important!*
>
> The second edition of *Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur* introduces
> you to the current standards for lightning protection and communication
> systems. You’ll learn effective grounding and bonding techniques for home
> stations (including condos and apartments), portable and mobile stations,
> towers, and outdoor antennas.
>
> Build your ham radio station using these effective grounding and bonding
> techniques:
>
> *AC safety*: Protect against shock hazards from ac-powered equipment by
> providing a safe path for current when a fault in wiring or insulation
> occurs.
>
>
> *Lightning protection*: Keep all equipment at the same voltage during
> transients from lightning, and dissipate the lightning’s charge in the
> Earth, away from equipment.
>
>
> *RF management*: Prevent unwanted RF currents and voltages (also known as
> RF interference or RFI) from disrupting the normal functions of equipment.”
>
>
>
> 73 de WA1QZX
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 30, 2023, at 4:28 PM, Geoffrey Feldman <geoffreyf at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> There is no black and white answer.  Check antenna performance.   Read up
> on Lightning protection.  What I wrote to you is considerably condensed
> from the ARRL book on this subject.
>
>
>
> It’s better to do the extra work and get it right.  It’s very good to
> recognize that not all grounds are the same thing – but you want to think
> that way? You might get away with it or – you might ruin your rig or burn
> down your house in a Lightning strike. The choice is still yours.
>
>
>
> DO NOT use the ground for the house electrical system or the cable TV
> system ALWAYS use your own ground. It’s not OK to use an existing ground
> for another system – never OK for that.
>
>
>
> You still didn’t tell us the wavelength of your antenna. That matters a
> lot.
>
>
>
> Geoff W1GCF
>
>
>
> *From:* KC1SOZ [mailto:kc1soz at bd5.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 30, 2023 4:15 PM
> *To:* Geoffrey Feldman
> *Cc:* w1hh
> *Subject:* Re: [bars] Ground post
>
>
>
> So, 1) is a bad idea, 2) is ok? As I said, the mast would be a metal post
> buried 8 ft into the ground.
>
>
>
> The antenna in question is one of the Hy-Gain AV-14AVQ's that I bought
> from Niece (and maybe a second one in a phased array later on.)
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 4:04 PM Geoffrey Feldman <geoffreyf at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> “Ground” has different meanings.  The short answer to your question is: No.
>
>
>
> Explanation: In this particular case, what you propose is ill advised.
> The electrical system ground post is for the electrical system.  RF or
> Lightning that is not absorbed by that post would then go into the
> residence.  Similarly surges from the power distribution system could go to
> your equipment.  Yes, people do this and get away with it but that doesn’t
> mean it’s a good idea or that it’s the same idea at different locales.
>
>
>
> If you are sure it’s buried 8’ STRAIGHT DOWN into the ground then it’s
> probably OK for lightning strike management.  (However there should be
> precautions for where the feedline goes into your home but that’s another
> story.) Where Lightning is concerned there is no perfect solutions just to
> pray that yours is good enough.
>
>
>
> If you are asking about an effective counterpoise then it may not be
> satisfactory.   The answer depends on soil conditions where you are but
> generally wires laid along the ground or just beneath the turf will provide
> better antenna performance (you didn’t mention the wavelength, so for
> shorter wave lengths there may be easier but adequate solutions)  Measure
> performance and if in doubt – add more horizontal wires along the ground.
>
>
>
> In both cases, what you suggest may not prevent common mode currents
> returning through the outer conductor of the Coax. This is bad but can be
> corrected with a choke near the entry point to the house.  If the E-field
> of your antenna doesn’t find a suitable place to complete its circuit
> (counterpoise or opposite side in a dipole) then it will find other paths.
> Antenna performance will suffer, impedance will be off etc.
>
>
>
> Back to the word “Ground” – the word is used in other ways such as
> “equipment ground, a no load safety return for electrical failure (the
> third prong of a plug).   It can mean a comment point that stated voltages
> in a circuit are measured from.  In other radio systems, it can mean a
> suitable return path for the e-field such as the metal body of a car, a
> radar dish etc.    If you were to sink 8’ ground rods 10 feet apart or so
> you would likely see voltage between them, pointing out that ground is
> never absolute, it’s always local.
>
>
>
> By the way, do not use a ground established for the buildings Cable TV
> service. That can make you super unpopular.
>
>
>
> Putting in a new ground can be a lot of fun.   When in doubt – do that.
> Get the standard ground stake sold at Lowes or Home Depot.   Get up on a
> step ladder to start it in.  A solid carpenters hammer is enough.  It may
> seem stuck, keep banging and hopefully you will break what it’s stuck on.
> (Dig safe is a good thing too)
>
>
>
> That should do it
>
> Geoff W1GCF
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* bars [mailto:bars-bounces at w1hh.org] *On Behalf Of *KC1SOZ
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 30, 2023 3:38 PM
> *To:* w1hh
> *Subject:* [bars] Ground post
>
>
>
> When putting up a ground-mounted vertical antenna...
>
>
>
> 1) Is it OK to attach the ground strap from one of the u-bolts to the
> residential grounding post already buried in the ground?
>
>
>
> 2) Is a grounding strap strictly necessary if the mast to which the
> antenna is attached with the u-bolts is itself a metal post buried almost 8
> feet into the ground?
>
>
>
> 73,
>
> KC1SOZ
>
> Juan
>
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