[bars] SPAM Re: GMRS

Fri Oct 11 12:09:15 CDT 2024

Geoff -

"There are other bands we share with other services, so in this regard it
is the same."
I think this is a false analogy.  Where amateurs share bands today with
other services, we act as hams and not as users/licensees of the services
sharing the allocation.
Hams talking to hams on FRS/GMRS frequencies doesn't make sense when we
have substantial allocations of our own equivalent bands.
Hams talking to FRS/GMRS users would basically make us users of that
service.  See below.

"if we are operating within the channel definitions of frequency,
bandwidth, offset, and power - albeit with non-GMRS equipment, why not?"
Factual answer - because that's how they wrote the rules - FRS and GMRS
require type-accepted equipment, and ham equipment isn't type-accepted for
FRS/GMRS (which requires that it not be able to transmit outside those
allcoations).
More general answer: we can all have opinions on how it might/ought to be -
at the end of the day, the FCC sets the rules, and there is value in
administrative clarity / division between different uses.

The rules for FRS are that anyone can use it, as long as the equipment
meets requirements and is certified.  I think this applies to CB as well,
right?
The rules for GMRS are that anyone can ask the FCC for a license, and use
certified equipment in line with operational requirements which are mostly
enforced by the gear.
The rules for the Amateur Service require passing a knowledge test, and
grant correspondingly greater privileges both in terms of our rights to use
non-certified equipment, and the significant primary and secondary
allocations of spectrum we are privileged to use.  Hams have also
demonstrated a certain degree of self-regulation in both the licensing
process and operating practice that supports the FCC.

If they allowed hams to use GMRS (or FRS) without the restrictions placed
on other users, then they'd have to write the legal language to allow and
characterize that use into the regulation.  That would make it harder to
understand and perhaps leave room for abuse/conflicting uses.

I see it as a "good fences make good neighbors" situation.  The rules are
clear in each domain and apply to everyone equally.  The practical barrier
to entry for FRS/GMRS is very low, especially when you can buy certified
radios for less than the cost of a decent lunch.  The GMRS ticket costs
less than a latte per year, and none is required for FRS.

That said, I don't expect the black helicopters to show up with FCC
enforcement officers, if you PTT on FRS/GMRS using your widebanded HT :).

Adam / AA1N

On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 12:11 PM geoffreyf at comcast.net <
geoffreyf at comcast.net> wrote:

> Actually, we can operate on CB or GMRS using equipment sold for that
> purpose.   We are not restricted because we are hams.  We only have to use
> GMRS equipment.
>
> Also, GMRS is a channelized service, so if we did / could operate in the
> GMRS band, we would have to set our equipment to the channel restrictions
> (different for different channels).  There are other bands we share with
> other services, so in this regard it is the same.   As licensees we must
> yield to, and not interfere with the other users of the frequencies.
>
> So, I repeat, if we are operating within the channel definitions of
> frequency, bandwidth, offset, and power - albeit with non-GMRS equipment,
> why not?    We have taken tests that demonstrate we know what we are
> supposed to do and not do, so that also would apply.  It's not a public
> safety, marine, aviation, commercial channel, so that's not an issue.
>
> At the end of the day, the only effect of the restriction is that we have
> to buy GMRS equipment to operate legally.
>
> I think the answer is that GMRS equipment manufacturers want to sell their
> stuff and defray the costs of type approval for the band.
>
> Any other reason?
>
> Geoff  / W1GCF
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Adam Smith <asmith at netspace.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, October 11, 2024 10:42 AM
> *To:* geoffreyf at comcast.net <geoffreyf at comcast.net>
> *Cc:* Verhulst <verhulst at comcast.net>; BARS CLUB BROADCAST <bars at w1hh.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [bars] ***SPAM*** Re: GMRS
>
> "A more interesting question would be why can't licensed hams operate on
> those frequencies without an additional license or charge?"
>
> IMHO, for the same reason that we can't operate on CB frequencies - the
> allocation is reserved for a different user base, with different purposes,
> and subject to different entry criteria and corresponding rules. If you
> have that need, get that license (by buying an FRS certified unit, or
> sending the FCC the very nominal GMRS fee).
>
> Adam
>
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 10:30 AM geoffreyf--- via bars <bars at w1hh.org>
> wrote:
>
> The point is regulation.  There are all sorts of things regulated by
> license for which there is no or minimal testing.   Revenue may be part of
> it, but one must provide the license call sign on request if operating over
> ½ watt.    CB once required a similar license.  The revenue, at least
> theoretically, supports monitoring and enforcement.
>
> GMRS bands don't seem very active.  A more interesting question would be
> why can't licensed hams operate on those frequencies without an additional
> license or charge?
>
> Geoff
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* bars <bars-bounces at w1hh.org> on behalf of Verhulst via bars <
> bars at w1hh.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, October 11, 2024 10:09 AM
> *Cc:* BARS CLUB BROADCAST <bars at w1hh.org>
> *Subject:* [bars] ***SPAM*** Re: GMRS
>
> If there is no test, what's point of requiring a license? Other than
> increasing FCC revenue, of course.
>
> 73Tony W1DYS
>
>
> On 10/11/2024 9:52 AM, Stephen Crook via bars wrote:
>
> Here are the current rules for GMRS
>
> https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E?toc=1
>
> Including channels (FRS = interstitial) and power limits:
>
> *§ 95.1763 GMRS channels.*
>
> The GMRS is allotted 30 channels—16 main channels and 14 interstitial
> channels. GMRS stations may transmit on any of the channels as indicated
> below.
>
> (a) *462 MHz main channels.* Only mobile, hand-held portable, repeater,
> base and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. The channel
> center frequencies are: 462.5500, 462.5750, 462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500,
> 462.6750, 462.7000, and 462.7250 MHz.
>
> (b) *462 MHz interstitial channels.* Only mobile, hand-held portable and
> base stations may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center
> frequencies are: 462.5625, 462.5875, 462.6125, 462.6375, 462.6625,
> 462.6875, and 462.7125 MHz.
>
> (c) *467 MHz main channels.* Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and
> fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable
> and control stations may transmit on these channels only when communicating
> through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance
> with § 95.319(c)
> <https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.319#p-95.319(c)>. The
> channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250,
> 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.
>
> (d) *467 MHz interstitial channels.* Only hand-held portable units may
> transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5625,
> 467.5875, 467.6125, 467.6375, 467.6625, 467.6875, and 467.7125 MHz.
>
> *§ 95.1767 GMRS transmitting power limits.*
>
> This section contains transmitting power limits for GMRS stations. The
> maximum transmitting power depends on which channels are being used and the
> type of station.
>
> (a) *462/467 MHz main channels.* The limits in this paragraph apply to
> stations transmitting on any of the 462 MHz main channels or any of the 467
> MHz main channels. Each GMRS transmitter type must be capable of operating
> within the allowable power range. GMRS licensees are responsible for
> ensuring that their GMRS stations operate in compliance with these limits.
>
> (1) The transmitter output power of mobile, repeater and base stations
> must not exceed 50 Watts.
>
> (2) The transmitter output power of fixed stations must not exceed 15
> Watts.
>
> (b) *462 MHz interstitial channels.* The effective radiated power (ERP)
> of mobile, hand-held portable and base stations transmitting on the 462 MHz
> interstitial channels must not exceed 5 Watts.
>
> (c) *467 MHz interstitial channels.* The effective radiated power (ERP)
> of hand-held portable units transmitting on the 467 MHz interstitial
> channels must not exceed 0.5 Watt. Each GMRS transmitter type capable of
> transmitting on these channels must be designed such that the ERP does not
> exceed 0.5 Watts.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> "Be well, do good work, and keep in touch." -Garrison Keillor
>

-- 
"Be well, do good work, and keep in touch." -Garrison Keillor
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